Posts by Disillusioned JW

20

drinking wine in the Kingdom

by enoughisenough in

something jumped out at me that i never paid attention to while reading further into matt 26...in vs 28, he tells them his blood is to be poured out for the many for forgiveness of sin.

but note vs 29 but i say to you: i will no menas drink again any of this product of the vine until that day when i drink it new with you in the kingdom of my father.

cross reference luke 22:18 for i tell you , from now on, i will not drink again from the product of the vine until the kingdom of god comes.. what is the point of all of this: matt 26:29 " i drink it new with you " mark 14:25 " drink new in the kingdom of god.

Disillusioned JW

I am saying that nothing in the words attributed to Jesus about the Memorial specifically say that wine is to be used. As to whether or not fresh grapes and fresh grape juice would have been available during Passover time, I don't know, though I know the WT says such was not available. Regarding the account of Jesus turning water into intoxicating wine for the guests to drink, such is somewhat unsettling to me whenever I think of that account. I don't know what to make that account regarding the wine mentioned as being intoxicating. I have not done much research on that matter, however the https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1965/02/wines-of-the-bible source I provided in my prior post briefly discusses an SDA view about the turning of water into wine and about the meaning of the biblical words which are sometimes translated as "wine". That source also says the following.

'Christ's first miracle at the marriage feast was to produce "good wine" in an emergency. This was the pure juice of the grape.

... The Saviour's final act with His disciples was the institution of the Lord's Supper to take the place of the Passover supper. That the wine used on this occasion was unfermented is established by the fact that during the Passover season leaven and all other things fermented were not to be found in any Hebrew home (Ex. 12:15). It is unthinkable that the wine used to represent His blood (1 Cor. 11:25) would bear the taint of ferment and its cause, which is death. Jesus said to the disciples, "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom" (Matt. 26:29). The wine used at the Lord's Supper was called the "fruit of the vine." Ferment is a type of sin, and since in Him was no sin, the wine that represents His blood must be without ferment.

... The Septuagint uses the Greek oinos to translate both yayin and tirdsh—the former referring to wine in general, the latter to unintoxicating wine. On the basis of this, careful scholarship should attend the interpretation of those texts where oinos is used, taking cognizance of the context in which the word is found. This alone determines whether oinos should be rendered as an intoxicating beverage or not. Notice the usage of oinos in the following texts: Luke 7:33—"For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil." Luke 10:34—"And [the good Samaritan] went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine." John 4:46—"So Jesus came again into Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine." The word oinos is used in each of the above texts, but obviously different kinds of wine are being set forth.

... The study of the wines of the Bible reveals the fact that for every good thing that God has made, Satan has made a counterfeit. Nowhere in the Scriptures can it be proved that God has put His endorsement on the use of intoxicating wine. He has given man the pure juice of the grape for his enjoyment and benefit. He provided it as a symbol of the spilt blood of Jesus Christ for our sins, and greatest of all, we have the Saviour's promise: "I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom" (Matt. 26: 29).'

If I recall correctly, Charles Taze Russell did not alcohol. But his successor, Joseph Rutherford (a drunkard) did. Rutherford published considerable literature through the WT saying it is fine to drink alcoholic drinks. Rutherford resisted the Prohibition amendment to the USA Constitution which prohibited alcoholic drinks. On the matter whose views was more correct - that of Russell or of Rutherford and the successors to Rutherford?

20

drinking wine in the Kingdom

by enoughisenough in

something jumped out at me that i never paid attention to while reading further into matt 26...in vs 28, he tells them his blood is to be poured out for the many for forgiveness of sin.

but note vs 29 but i say to you: i will no menas drink again any of this product of the vine until that day when i drink it new with you in the kingdom of my father.

cross reference luke 22:18 for i tell you , from now on, i will not drink again from the product of the vine until the kingdom of god comes.. what is the point of all of this: matt 26:29 " i drink it new with you " mark 14:25 " drink new in the kingdom of god.

Disillusioned JW

The verses say "product of the vine" not wine. The product of the vine can simply be unfermented grape juice. Many people read "wine" into the verses, but the verses don't actually say wine. Both unfermented grape juice and wine are products of the vine. For example, the Seventh-day Adventists are forbidden to drink wine and they use unfermented grape juice in their Lord's Supper communion. See https://www.adventist.org/the-lords-supper/ . It says in part the following.

'Wine, or grape juice—Jesus blood

The fruit of the vine symbolizes Jesus’ blood that was shed for us.

“This is My blood of the new covenant,” said Jesus, “which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:28).

“Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins” (Hebrews 9:22, ESV).

As with the bread, Jesus was standing before His disciples when He made the pronouncement, “This is My blood.”

Was the fruit of the vine fermented or unfermented?

Most Seventh-day Adventist Christians believe the fruit of the vine used in the Passover celebration was unfermented grape juice. After partaking of the cup, Jesus said,

“I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom” (Matthew 26:29).

Above all, considering the ways fermented wine is often condemned in Scripture, Seventh-day Adventists seek to commemorate Christ’s sacrifice for us with a clear, unclouded mind.

“Wine is a mocker, Strong drink is a brawler, and whoever is led astray by it is not wise” (Proverbs 20:1).

“Do not look on the wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup, when it swirls around smoothly; at the last it bites like a serpent, and stings like a viper” (Proverbs 23:31, 32).

“But Daniel purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself with the portion of the king’s delicacies, nor with the wine which he drank; therefore he requested of the chief of the eunuchs that he might not defile himself” (Daniel 1:8).

Grape juice, freshly squeezed from the vine, is a fitting symbol of the perfect blood of Christ, shed for the redemption of mankind.'

See also https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1965/02/wines-of-the-bible which says in part the following. "The Seventh-day Adventist position on the use of intoxicating beverages has ever been consistent and Biblical. The church has always taken the unequivocal stand that alcoholic drinks are debilitating to body and mind, and hence are not to be used by the child of God, for "if any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are" (1 Cor. 3:17). Not only does the use of such beverages defile body and mind but the result of their continued use makes a person unfit to enter the kingdom of heaven (chapter 6:10). Alcohol is formed by the process of fermentation. Fermentation signifies death, death is the result of sin, hence fermentation is a type of sin."

https://www.adventist.org/official-statements/historic-stand-for-temperance-principles-and-acceptance-of-donations-statement-impacts-social-change/ says the following.

"Historic Stand for Temperance Principles and Acceptance of Donations Statement Impacts Social Change

From the very inception of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, temperance has been a major focus and the Church has played a key role in struggling against the inroads of alcoholic beverages, tobacco, and other drugs. While some Christian denominations have lessened their emphasis on temperance, Seventh-day Adventists have continued to vigorously oppose the use of alcohol, tobacco, and improper drugs. The stand of the Church advocating abstinence from harmful substances is well established in the Church’s fundamental beliefs."

After I became age 21 I tried out wine and other alcoholic drinks on occasion to see if I would like it and to see how my body would feel, and I discovered that I strongly dislike the taste of alcohol (a poison) and I strongly dislike the way alcohol (a poison) makes my body feel. I thus strongly dislike drinking of wine and other alcoholic drinks (lacking unfermented fruit juice). In contrast I enjoy drinking unfermented fruit juices (but now I rarely even drink those because the high sugar content can cause health problems over time). The only times an alcoholic drink tasted good to me was when it was a mixed drink containing unfermented fruit juice mixed in with wine. I also dislike the strong smell of wine (including from meats cooked in wine).

When I observed the Memorial of Jesus Christ by myself (which I did for two years) with me officiating it for myself I bought red grapes from the grocery store and squeezed out the red grape juice and drank it instead of wine, since I did not want any alcohol.

27

Is The Religion Of Jehovah's Witnesses Biblical?

by Vanderhoven7 in

the answer is a definite no!.

because every doctrine that is unique to jehovah's witnesses is not in the bible.

the unique doctrines of jehovah’s witnesses are the ones that only jehovah’s witnesses teach.

Disillusioned JW

What is the URL of the forum topic page which most recently documented that is was first in 1931 that the WT said the parousia of Jesus began in 1914 instead of in 1914? I do have a 1940 book (called Religion) by Rutherford which says that Jesus began ruling as king in 1914, thus providing some documentation that the doctrinal change began before the year 1941. For example page 336 of the book (in the chapter called "End Of Religion") says the following. "In the year 1914 (A.D.) Christ Jesus, the King, was enthroned. ... The Devil then realized that the time until the final battle is short and that he must act hurriedly."

Page 337 says the following.

'Seeing that his time is short, the Devil began about 1918 to gather all the nations "to the battle of that great day of God Almighty", and in this work he used religion, politics and the commerce of the world.--Revelation 16: 14.

... As the gathering of the nations to Armageddon has progressed the woes upon the people have greatly increased, and in this year 1940 the nations and the people are in very great distress because of these woes."

In between pages 96 and 97 Rutherford's book there is a full color illustration depicting the 12 apostles (with a tongue of fire above the head of each of them) at Pentecost - and the depiction of one of the 12 apostles looks astonishingly very strikingly like me!

23

The Gospel According to Jehovah's Witnesses

by Vanderhoven7 in

mark jones explains the watchtower gospel much better than i can.. "the good news that christians in the first century preached was the birth, death and resurrection of jesus christ; that all those who believed in him were saved and reconciled to god through the death of his son.. unfortunately jehovah’s witnesses) have been led to believe it is something bizarrely different.

the good news according to the watchtower society is as follows:.

the the good news (according to jehovah’s witnesses).

Disillusioned JW

Is Yahweh's Saints an offshoot of one of leading the Bible Students (Dawn Bible Students?) groups which argued with Rutherford regarding the year 1934 instead of 1914?

https://www.oxfordbiblechurch.co.uk/index.php/teachings/bible-chronology/2570-the-7-times-of-the-gentiles makes use of the year 1933. It says in part the following.

"In 588 BC Jerusalem was besieged by Babylon, leading to its destruction soon after. It is the start of the siege in January 588BC that is clearly marked by God as marking the last of the starting dates of the Times of the Gentiles, when Gentile dominion was fully established over Israel (see Jeremiah 52 and Ezekiel 24).
2520 years take us to 1933 AD.

In 1933, Bible-students who had been watching the fulfilment of the Times of the Gentiles, and who had seen signs of them ending in 1914, 1917, 1923, were expecting to see them finally end in 1933, but clearly they did not end at this time. However these believers were able to mark 1933 as a key spiritual end-point.
This was the year God when, according to Romans 11:22, God spiritually cut off the Gentile nations (but not the Church) from the place of favour that they had been grafted into when Israel was cut off in October 33. For more explanation see the
Appendix “What happened in 1933?” at the end.

Summary. The Seven-Times started with the Babylonian Captivity (607-588BC). At the end of these Times, God should restore control of Jerusalem to Israel. Going forward 2520 years from the starting dates took us to 1914-1917-1923-1933. These are all key dates for the ending of the Times of Gentile domination and the re-establishment of Israel, but it was not until 1948 and 1967 that these Times finally ended. How can we understand this puzzle?

The Missing Key: the Life of Christ. The missing clue is the special time of the life of Jesus Christ, the true King. As might be expected, the Messiah, Jesus who came to earth during these 7-Times, has put His imprint upon the course of these Times.
He was here for almost 34 years (rounding up). Because of the presence of the King of Kings, these 34 years could not be counted as part of the Times of Gentile control. Thus God had to suspend His counting of these Times. Thus they must end over a 19 year period of time, 34 years later than the original calculation.

*Adding 34 years to 1914 (the start of nation-shaking)
takes us to 1948 - the rebirth of the nation of Israel!

*Adding 34 years to 1933
takes us to 1967 - the recapture of Jerusalem,

This signalled and signified the end of the Times of the Gentiles (according to Luke 21:24). As 34 years measured the time from His conception/birth to His fullness, so the ending of these periods (in 1948 and 1967) saw the full manifestation of that which had their spiritual beginnings at the start of these periods (1914 and 1933).

Thus the 7 Times were due to end in 1948 and 1967, when
(1) Israel should be regathered to her land and reborn as a nation, and (2) regain control of Jerusalem.
It is a fact of history that:
(1) was fulfilled on May 14th, 1948 and
(2) was fulfilled on June 6th, 1967.
This is a clear sign that we are in the end-times."

https://www.oxfordbiblechurch.co.uk/index.php/about-us-obc indicates that the views of the author of that site is not likely an offshoot of the JWs and the Bible Students.

26

Rutherford and dinosaurs

by jhine in

sorry if this has been discussed before but on quora someone asked if rutherford had said that dinosaurs had been taken to venus .

i assume that the questioner had heard it somewhere and wanted to check it out.

i've never come across this before is it true ?

Disillusioned JW

The quote (posted on page 1 of this topic thread) from the Golden Age does not say that the dinosaurs were transported from Earth to Venus, nor does it say the WT taught there were dinosaurs on Venus. Instead the quote says that some scientists think animals like the former dinosaurs of Earth exist on Venus. Back in 1931 scientists did not know how hot Venus is and they did not know if some kind of life exists on Venus. Venus was thought as possibly have life on it. The Golden Age was correct in saying that the temperature of Venus is considerably warmer than Earth's temperature of the year 1931. Some modern scientists also say that life like that of some life of Earth (and life like that of a former time on Earth) likely exist on another world beyond Earth.

29

New poll shows public knows Jehovah's Witnesses and dislike them....almost as much as the Church of Satan

by Balaamsass2 in

wow.

while not a pew survey, i found these to be surprising results.

" a recent yougov poll explores americans' attitudes toward 35 religious groups, organizations, and belief systems.

Disillusioned JW

slimboyfat notice from the website of the Unitarian Universalists are so radically different from the WT/JW religion. Notice that https://www.uua.org/beliefs/what-we-believe/principles says the following.

"As Rev. Barbara Wells ten Hove explains, “The Principles are not dogma or doctrine, but rather a guide for those of us who choose to join and participate in Unitarian Universalist religious communities.”

1st Principle: The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
2nd Principle: Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
3rd Principle: Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
4th Principle: A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
5th Principle: The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
6th Principle: The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
7th Principle: Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

The seven Principles and six Sources of the Unitarian Universalist Association grew out of the grassroots of our communities, were affirmed democratically, and are part of who we are. "

https://www.uua.org/beliefs/what-we-believe/beliefs says the folklowing.

"We Welcome People with Many Beliefs

In Unitarian Universalism, you can bring your whole self: your full identity, your questioning mind, your expansive heart.

... Explore the links below to learn how Unitarian Universalists weave these traditions and identities into who they are today.

What Unites Us?

We are united in our broad and inclusive outlook, and in our values, as expressed in our seven Principles."

https://www.uua.org/beliefs/what-we-believe/sources says the following.

"Sources of Our Living Tradition

...

Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;

Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit;
Spiritual teachings of Earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature."

... https://www.uua.org/beliefs/what-we-believe/life-death says the following.

'At the beginning of life, we welcome children with ceremonies of Child Dedication, in which we affirm the goodness and the blessing in every human life. You could say we believe in “original blessing” rather than “original sin.”

... Unitarian Universalist views about life after death are informed by both science and spiritual traditions. Many of us live with the assumption that life does not continue after death, and many of us hold it as an open question, wondering if our minds will have any awareness when we are no longer living. Few of us believe in divine judgment after death. It’s in our religious DNA: the Universalist side of our tradition broke with mainstream Christianity by rejecting the idea of eternal damnation."

https://www.uua.org/beliefs/who-we-are says the following.

"We have radical roots and a history as self-motivated spiritual people: we think for ourselves and recognize that life experience influences our beliefs more than anything.

We need not think alike to love alike. We are people of many beliefs and backgrounds: people with a religious background, people with none, people who believe in a God, people who don’t, and people who let the mystery be.

We are Unitarian Universalist and Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Humanist, Jewish, Muslim, Pagan, atheist and agnostic, believers in God, and more.

On the forefront of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, and Queer inclusion for more than 40 years, we are people of all sexual orientations and gender identities.

We seek to welcome you: your whole self, with all your truths and your doubts, your worries and your hopes. Join us on this extraordinary adventure of faith."

https://www.uua.org/safe says the following.

"Professional Misconduct Complaints

Our ministers, credentialed religious educators, and credentialed music leaders are held to high standards for appropriate behavior. Our Office of Ethics and Safety handles Complaints of Professional Misconduct for these professionals who serve our faith. The UUA's system for responding to complaints of professional misconduct is grounded in principles of restorative justice and reconciliation."

The Unitarian Universalists also urge people to be active voters - the opposite of what the Wt/JW urges. Notice that https://www.uua.org/justice says the following.

"Directly or indirectly, the issues so many of us care most deeply about—climate change, LGBTQ rights, immigration, racial justice and more—are part of every election and on every ballot. UUs are called to join forces with all people who want to organize our communities and our nation to #VoteLove and #DefeatHate. Let’s UU the Vote to defend democracy and voting rights." They probably also view the United Nations favorably.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/04/the-most-and-least-educated-u-s-religious-groups/ list (in a chart) the Unitarian Universalists as the religion with its members being the 2nd most college educated in the USA in contrast to the Jehovah's Witnesses being the 3rd least college educated in the USA. The web page says the following. "By far, Hindus and Unitarian Universalists have among the largest share of those with a college degree – 77% and 67% respectively."

In light of the above, do you now see why "... many Unitarians really dislike JWs ..."? They represent much of what the WT/JW religion calls Babylon the Great (but in many respects in what I consider a good way) and the WT/JW religion says that Babylon the Great will be destroyed by God, so naturally many Unitarian Universalists would disprove of the WT religion and dislike many of its JWs. They also appear to handle cases of sexual abuse of children far better than the WT/JW religion does.

13

How come the old boys on the GB don't get kicked out at 70?

by eyeslice in

jw
friends

it would appear that circuit overseers (no dos these days i guess) are taken off at 70 years old.

even older ones in bethels are disposed (sorry 're-assigned to the field) of before they get too past it.. how come though the old boys on the gb aren't shown the door at 70 and replaced by younger men - obviously of the recently anointed type?

they don't look a particularly fit bunch so they can't claim special mightiness because of doing 'the lord's work'.

Disillusioned JW

Similarly how come the judges of the Supreme Court of the USA don't get kicked out at age 70 or for any other reason? The answer is similar to why the governing body members don't get kicked out of the WT/JW religion due to old age. Furthermore, the USA federal Constitution protects the USA Supreme Court judges from being removed from office.

29

New poll shows public knows Jehovah's Witnesses and dislike them....almost as much as the Church of Satan

by Balaamsass2 in

wow.

while not a pew survey, i found these to be surprising results.

" a recent yougov poll explores americans' attitudes toward 35 religious groups, organizations, and belief systems.

Disillusioned JW

slimboyfat did it occur to you that many Unitarians really dislike the JWs (and other fundamentalists) because JWs (and other fundamentalists) have core values diametrically opposite of Unitarians? Modern day Unitarians highly value freedom of thought (including in regards to religion), but the WT opposes its members from exercising freedom of thought in religious matters and from expressing criticisms of the WT with other JWs. The Unitarians highly value higher education and the pursuit of high level careers whereas the WT highly discourages JWs from obtaining university degrees and high level careers and the WT is sharply critical of the scientific idea of evolution. The Unitarians Universalists are highly tolerant of their members being a Unitarian and of a different religion (such as Muslim) at the same time, but the JW religion condemns all religions other than their own and says that Jehovah and Jesus will destroy all religions and all worshipers other than the JW religion and JWs. The Unitarians are highly tolerant of Unitarians beings atheists whereas the JW religion is extremely intolerant of JWs being atheists.

27

Is The Religion Of Jehovah's Witnesses Biblical?

by Vanderhoven7 in

the answer is a definite no!.

because every doctrine that is unique to jehovah's witnesses is not in the bible.

the unique doctrines of jehovah’s witnesses are the ones that only jehovah’s witnesses teach.

Disillusioned JW

ozziepost, yes a Christian can be independent and even avoid attending a congregation, but parts of the NT say that Christians are to attend a congregation (and that they would have works of the spirit and gifts of the spirit). Furthermore, when people read the Bible and become Christians of some kind as a result they will come up with their own ideas of what the Bible teaches (even if they ask for guidance from the so-called holy spirit, from Jesus the so-called Christ, and from the so called God the Father). Furthermore, they will disagree with each other on a number of those ideas. That is why there are so many doctrinal divisions within Christianity and part of the reason why various churches, denominations, sects, and 'cults' have formed within Christianity.

According to the NT, shouldn't Christianity be one? Shouldn't there be only one version of Christianity (regarding doctrines and regarding practices claimed to be required by God), instead of the numerous divisions we find in Christianity? Didn't the gospels (at least one gospel) say that Jesus told his disciples that they should be one just as "I and the father are one"? Doesn't the NT say that God is a god of order instead of disorder/chaos? Doesn't truth matter? Doesn't truth really really matter? If the Bible is true, doesn't there exist a God of Christianity who communicates very clearly to all of his followers/believers? Didn't a gospel account (the one named John) say that Jesus would send the holy spirit (also called the spirit of truth) to provide correct understanding to all disciples of Christ who request to receive such?

Since by etymology the word "theology" literally means "science of God/god" and "knowledge of God/god" (and "study of God/god") shouldn't Christianity theology be a true science, an actual branch of science? But Christian theology is not a real science, not a real branch of science [people study human ideas about God instead of studying God/god himself/herself/itself/themselves]. Shouldn't God/god be an entity which humans can directly study if theology is really a study of God and a science of God?

Why don't all Christian theologians, especially those who are scholars of such, agree with each other on all matters of doctrine? Why are some them Catholics, some Orthodox, some Lutheran, some Presbyterian, some Methodist, some Baptist, some evangelical, some Episcopalian, some Seventh-day Adventist, etc? Why are of some them atheist or deist or agnostic?

29

New poll shows public knows Jehovah's Witnesses and dislike them....almost as much as the Church of Satan

by Balaamsass2 in

wow.

while not a pew survey, i found these to be surprising results.

" a recent yougov poll explores americans' attitudes toward 35 religious groups, organizations, and belief systems.

Disillusioned JW

Regarding the attitudes towards atheists and nonreligious people in general, and some of the concerns of those people, I found the following article very informative and interesting.: https://www.atheists.org/2022/12/ny-governor-hochul-secular-recovery-bill/ .